Triple threat trap 178 mph on stock brakes (calipers)

Tough to tell unless you've experienced both. I want a upgraded brake system not only in case I feel like going fast, but for increased safety when driving my limited edition, irreplaceable car. I'd love matching front and rear brakes, but I also like to be able to buy maintenance parts at Auto Zone or Napa, because I live in a small town. I've heard great things about the willwood brakes. I want them, but they are very expensive and would probably be overkill on a daily driver anyhow.
 
Legit comparisons would be hard to achieve unless done on the same road, with same tires, tread wear, and air pressure.

Vehicle total weight would even play a role.


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I do recall when I beat the piss out of my car on Gingerman raceway. I treated the Wilwoods like a wicked step child and needless to say, they were rock solid, no fade and were flawless. I was able to drive as hard as I could without having to worry about braking. Totally awesome.

On the street. I can't tell the difference.

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If the stock brakes were good enough you wouldn't read so many threads about upgrading to better brakes. Not to mention plain old arguing, which we do here too. Clearly there are improvements to be made. The dragstrip is a controlled environment with adequate distance available that doesn't heat soak the brakes. It isn't comparable to a road course or even spirited driving on country back roads.

If you get the opportunity, drive an upgraded brake car and see for yourself. I don't own one of those little rolling distance measurement devices or whatever it takes to measure stopping distance. I think most of use are willing to share what we've learned, but heroic measures to provide "proof" may not be that important. I've got something now that really works, my interest in this doesn't extend to providing hard evidence to others with tools I don't have.
 
justbob said:
Legit comparisons would be hard to achieve unless done on the same road, with same tires, tread wear, and air pressure.

Vehicle total weight would even play a role.


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Click to expand...


At MV8 in Charlotte, NC, I came off Turn 4 at just under 100 MPH behind two cars with brake upgrades. As we dropped down onto pit road, I damn near tried to push the brake pedal through the floorboards trying to get it slowed down before climbing into the rear seat of CheeseheadBob's old car. My "Seat of the Pants" estimate is that Big Brakes are better and stop shorter under any condition. If my stock brakes were hot, I would have had to go into the infield to avoid running up the ass end of the cars ahead.

It was almost a Brown Streak moment. ... Almost !!
 
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In 8+ years of driving my car, I can't think of one time where I needed brakes that could run at the drag strip "5 times in a row" without fading or for driving around curvy roads at high rates of speed illegally and worried about my brakes fading. I'm rather attached to my driver's license, my life, but mostly my freedom from being someone's girlfriend in prison.

The only place to run a MM where you need such awesome brakes is at a racetrack like the one in Joliet, a rich man's playground. I would love to do it, but will likely never go there. http://autobahncc.com/

Panic stops, easier DD pedal effort and 1320 stops is all I am interested in. I know how to get there for less than a grand.
 
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Many of us want the fun of driving a faster car. I do. However, I place brakes and handling far above engine performance. Even driven at normal road speeds, the ability to stop sooner, or turn quicker, may be the difference in me rear ending someone or hitting a kid on a bike.

I want a faster car. Not sure I'll spend money here.

I need a better braking/handling car. I'll spend money here for sure.
 
The factory braking system on the Marauder is crap for its size. Works fine for typical daily driving, but anything more and they get angry. I auto-x'd mine and open tracked it. My fav thing about my new daily is the brakes. 14" front, 13" rear.
 
Bluerauder said:
At MV8 in Charlotte, NC, I came off Turn 4 at just under 100 MPH behind two cars with brake upgrades. As we dropped down onto pit road, I damn near tried to push the brake pedal through the floorboards trying to get it slowed down before climbing into the rear seat of CheeseheadBob's old car. My "Seat of the Pants" estimate is that Big Brakes are better and stop shorter under any condition. If my stock brakes were hot, I would have had to go into the infield to avoid running up the ass end of the cars ahead.

It was almost a Brown Streak moment. ... Almost !!
Click to expand...

ABOVE is really "it" regarding brakes!

Can't compare track to road.

At track there is a need and designed area to slow, on the I80 to I5 five lane "suicide merge" when some idiot slams thier brakes on and nearly stops, instead of merging at 55 mph an hour as the freeway was designed... Which leaves only the precious 5-8 car lengths in front of you, THIS is where our brakes under-perform.

Any of us who have "Fred Flintstoned" our foot through the floor and created a "brownstreak moment" a few times -- knowing that any other car we've ever owned would have/could have slowed/stopped in much MUCH less distance -- can tell you our brakes are a weak on these cars.

How to fix this is where different ideas come into play.

We can all agree that bigger brake rotors and bigger sweep area combined with the mechanism to squeeze pads against that sweep area, is generally "better."

I am working on the buying the parts for the big brake kit now, and will do big brake upgrade to one car at a time about four weeks apart and compare them. It will not be entirely scientific data wise, as I'd bet the best accurate comparison will be the data in the differences (the area I DID NOT stop in) vs how many feet it took to stop each car.

So I'd expect the data to look something like/be similiar to this example: Big Brake -15ft, -13ft, -18ft, -20ft, -19ft. (Note: I made these numbers up for the example--not a prediction).

I will do five or six stops from 50 MPH in each and post the results.

Again, many factors will play into this and skew the data:
I will get better at applying the brakes
Brake harder or lesser each time
Brakes will heat up
I brake early or late
Speed changes slightly
Etc...

This said-- I fully expect the big brake upgrade to fully kick a$$ over the like new 17,000 mile stock brakes.

It may be March to May before I get to this-- but now I am very interested in doing so--as today is the first sunny beautiful Northern Cal 60 degree perfect day we've had all winter!

Unless somebody can do this sooner?

Thanks to Zack and Jerry (Gerry) for creating the upgrade!
 
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daddyusmaximus said:
Many of us want the fun of driving a faster car. I do. However, I place brakes and handling far above engine performance. Even driven at normal road speeds, the ability to stop sooner, or turn quicker, may be the difference in me rear ending someone or hitting a kid on a bike.

I want a faster car. Not sure I'll spend money here.

I need a better braking/handling car. I'll spend money here for sure.
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THIS ++++ is what I wanted to say-Thank you!

And I am doing the suspension and brakes before the motor mods as handling and stopping is MORE important to me than faster... as it leads to longer auto-life of vehicle. :0
 
I decided to see if there were any 60-0 test done comparing different brake systems and while there has been talk since the beginning of .net there has never been a comparison test, at least that I could find. Back in the early 2000's the were a few threads discussing a G-meter device that could give different results like 0-60, 60-0, g force, etc but no one ever seemed to do a test comparison.

Best info I could find was a M-T test that said the stock MM would stop in 137 ft. The big brake Baer kit on a KB would stop in about 126 ft ( not sure if the tires were stock and there was suspension work done). Couldn't find any info on the Wilwood kit or Zacks kit.


Lots of blah blah blah over the years, but no true scientific or unscientific testing. While I'm sure the BBKs work better when abused, spirited driving, track use, etc I can't find any data that supports they are significantly better than stock for DD use other than SOP, assuming you drive normally.

Would be good to put this issue to bed finally with some sort of testing to see what the numbers are it's only been 13+years.
 
Mr. Man said:
Best info I could find was a M-T test that said the stock MM would stop in 137 ft. The big brake Baer kit on a KB would stop in about 126 ft ( not sure if the tires were stock and there was suspension work done). Couldn't find any info on the Wilwood kit or Zacks kit.
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Here is some info from a Consumer's Report article back in April 2011 on the Best and Worst Stopping distances from 60-0 MPH. Basically around 110-125 feet is Good and 140-150 feet is Bad. That would put the Marauder's 137 feet shown above into the "marginal or fair" category. Pretty sure that I have seen some "premium" sports cars listed in the low 100s. Each line represents a different category like "Sports Cars" or "SUV" so not all cars are listed ... just the best in that category. At 137 feet, the Marauder would fall just about mid-way between the best and the worst in the Family Car category. Adding the brake kit would move it to the best within the class making it comparable to the next lighter car category by improving braking by about 10%. I suspect that the difference between the various brake kits discussed here is probably in the 1-2 percent range plus or minus (i.e. about 8-12% improvement over the stock set-up).

Shortest Stopping Distances 60-0 MPH

Porsche Boxster 112
Subaru WRX 125
Nissan Altima 3.5 SR 128 (compare with the Marauder in the "Family Car" category)
Hyundai Genesis 125
Cadillac SRX 126
Acura MDX 126

Longest Stopping Distances 60-0 MPH

Volvo C30 143
Dodge Caliber 149
Nissan Cube 149
Toyota Camry Hybrid 145 (compare with the Marauder in the "Family Car" category)
Cadillac DTS 145
Jeep Liberty 150
Jeep Wrangler Sahara 150
 
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Mr. Man said:
I decided to see if there were any 60-0 test done comparing different brake systems and while there has been talk since the beginning of .net there has never been a comparison test, at least that I could find. Back in the early 2000's the were a few threads discussing a G-meter device that could give different results like 0-60, 60-0, g force, etc but no one ever seemed to do a test comparison.

Best info I could find was a M-T test that said the stock MM would stop in 137 ft. The big brake Baer kit on a KB would stop in about 126 ft ( not sure if the tires were stock and there was suspension work done). Couldn't find any info on the Wilwood kit or Zacks kit.


Lots of blah blah blah over the years, but no true scientific or unscientific testing. While I'm sure the BBKs work better when abused, spirited driving, track use, etc I can't find any data that supports they are significantly better than stock for DD use other than SOP, assuming you drive normally.

Would be good to put this issue to bed finally with some sort of testing to see what the numbers are it's only been 13+years.
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Thank you Mr. Man, I misspoke , now that I thought longer about my statement of, not ever Haven driven a MM, with big Brakes.
Sargent Mac had a Kenny Brown Marauder, He let me pilot around the hood in 2005.
I also drove both of Jerry Barnes Trilogy cars, at an early open house he had.
I'm pretty sure one of those had a big Brakes.
Maybe some of you remember #2 came out of The parking lot, tires blazing , did a 180* and came inches from shattering the wafer thin bumper cover on the curb!
Jerry wouldn't allow him drive any more!

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Bluerauder said:
Here is some info from a Consumer's Report article back in April 2011 on the Best and Worst Stopping distances from 60-0 MPH. Basically around 110-125 feet is Good and 140-150 feet is Bad. That would put the Marauder's 137 feet shown above into the "marginal or fair" category. Pretty sure that I have seen some "premium" sports cars listed in the low 100s. Each line represents a different category like "Sports Cars" or "SUV" so not all cars are listed ... just the best in that category. At 137 feet, the Marauder would fall just about mid-way between the best and the worst in the Family Car category. Adding the brake kit would move it to the best within the class making it comparable to the next lighter car category by improving braking by about 10%. I suspect that the difference between the various brake kits discussed here is probably in the 1-2 percent range plus or minus (i.e. about 8-12% improvement over the stock set-up).

Shortest Stopping Distances 60-0 MPH

Porsche Boxster 112
Subaru WRX 125
Nissan Altima 3.5 SR 128 (compare with the Marauder in the "Family Car" category)
Hyundai Genesis 125
Cadillac SRX 126
Acura MDX 126

Longest Stopping Distances 60-0 MPH

Volvo C30 143
Dodge Caliber 149
Nissan Cube 149
Toyota Camry Hybrid 145 (compare with the Marauder in the "Family Car" category)
Cadillac DTS 145
Jeep Liberty 150
Jeep Wrangler Sahara 150
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Thanks to you Bluerauder ,
This is very useful information.
Especially, if we can get data on how much better in distances, the car stops with modified brakes.
I realize this is a difficult and expensive task.
Members already made mention of the point, that they don't have to prove that it stops better after the changes.
If the tiny bit of old data is correct regards to Kenny Brown Marauder ,
It takes our "fair" rated brakes to "good" category.



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It's not always a matter of how fast your driving. I've been in situations where a panic stop happens at slow speeds, or someone walks out in front of you because they're paying too much attention to their cell phone and not what's going on around them.

I don't have any empirical data, but my butt-o-meter tells me the Zack/Jerry kit is light years ahead of what I had. I did not have any confidence in my brakes before. I do now.
 
Sully008 said:
It's not always a matter of how fast your driving. I've been in situations where a panic stop happens at slow speeds, or someone walks out in front of you because they're paying too much attention to their cell phone and not what's going on around them.

I don't have any empirical data, but my butt-o-meter tells me the Zack/Jerry kit is light years ahead of what I had. I did not have any confidence in my brakes before. I do now.
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This is where I would consider the stock brakes to react closer to the modded set up.
As most have said , they can only feel the difference on the track.

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I must be the exception to the norm because I can certainly feel a huge difference on the street.
 
"This is where I would consider the stock brakes to react closer to the modded set up.
As most have said , they can only feel the difference on the track."

Ok so lets average and say there is "only" a 10% difference in stopping power with big brake kit. At 137 feet, minus the new -13.7 feet new brake kit advantage, 60-0 is now 123.30. A -13.7 feet is a HUGE improvement, as at 123.3 this improvement moves the Marauder into "Sports Car" territory.

Further, I'd assert the braking advantage of the big brake kit (we used 10%) to be equally distributed at all speeds, 10% better braking at 20MPH, 10% better braking at 30MPH, 10% better braking at 40MPH etc... because simply, the brakes do NOT know how fast you are going... you smash the peddle , the brakes bind the rotor.

Like the best gripping tires, the best gripping brakes save all the money spent on them (and more) the first time you really need them.

Plus--and this is the real world here, if you travel 13.7 feet past your needed stopping point from 60-0 -- well you car is munched.

And even at a 20ft stop - 2 feet is the difference between a big expletive and a sigh, and a big expletive and a big repair bill.
 
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