Health Care, Obama.....

I hope this helps clarify my opinions for you.
I saw articles about the insults and spitting, but I saw no mention of cameras or subsequent debunking articles. I'd love to see them.

My original point is that death threats are not civic participation, and are ignoble.

Still awaiting comments on the overwhelming majority.

Best response to the question I've hear all week. We'll see how the arguments play out in the Supreme Court, for which I imagine it is surely bound.

Well as I can't get those prior statistics, I can't argue the point any more than all I can say is I've seen them countless times and I know I wasn't dreaming.
I can't agree with you unless you have cited sources. Too many Americans are slurping up hearsay about important issues without really trying to understand it.

But my comparison to gun rights is completely valid in this case. When you say that this health care bill is just a bill, one could assume that about any bill. All I'm doing is putting that into perspective, if you can believe and understand how upset people would get about that, you should be able to understand how people can get upset about this as well. As I've said before, some of their behavior has been questionable (in some cases, very radical, yes), but it should not be impossible to see where it stems from.
No, I can't accept a pro-healthcare bill ass being a reasonable analogue for an anti-gun bill. They are fundamentally different things, as one does not have its own constitutional amendment and the other does.

I'll phrase this juxtaposition to the group as a whole, I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere else but I don't think I've seen it really thought about here or too many other places:

Given that many comparisons are being made along the lines of "government-run/socialized/institutionalized healthcare works well in 'x' country, it can work well in America", what would you have to say about that sentiment in comparison to almost the entire world's opinion on America trying to push our system of democracy onto other nations?
I like this; it's is a good analogy. In that hypothetical scenario, it makes me think that applying our system of democracy would potentially be of benefit to some countries and of detriment to others. Reverting back, I believe that our democratic republic, our bicameral legislature, our tripartite government, and civil discourse, can work towards a solution, not childish name-calling, not shaking heads on the tv, not screaming mouths on the radio, and not unsupported claims regurgitated ad infinitum amongst those unwilling to check the facts they are receiving.
 
There are huge health centres, clinics and diagnostic labs all over the place here - and they are all privately owned. There are former shopping malls in my city that are almost totally specialized doctors clinics, offering everything from scalp to foot surgery. Services range from covered procedures, to elective. A sure sign there is no money in working is a socialized medical system. Right? ;)

That's actually a pretty damn good idea!
 
We do it at the end of a gun barrel. I'm sure the rest of the world loves it.


lol, very nice.

Just for the record, I don't mean to be misconstrued here, my comparison about America and spreading democracy wasn't at all a political comment about it, just a comparison to the idea of other nations telling us we should accept their method of doing things because it works well for them.
 
No, I can't accept a pro-healthcare bill ass being a reasonable analogue for an anti-gun bill. They are fundamentally different things, as one does not have its own constitutional amendment and the other does.

I guess we'll have to disagree then. I'll leave it at this: my ultimate point with that comparison wasn't on the substance of each subject matter, but of the principle of the argument that only one bill should not be grounds to be greatly moved into action by.
 
Still awaiting comments on the overwhelming majority. <---you could use this thread as a litmus test, everyone who has posted is an adult of voting age, and the majority are not in favor of being fined by our own government to pay for someone elses health care.
I should have actually made a poll at the start of this, darn it.
 
Communisim - "a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party."

Socialism - " 1.a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles."

Having had over 750,000 battle casualties in Europe to save Europe from the National Socialist German Worker's Party we are very familiar with the so called "benevolance of Socialism".
 
lol, very nice. <---Thanx :D

Just for the record, I don't mean to be misconstrued here, my comparison about America and spreading democracy wasn't at all a political comment about it, just a comparison to the idea of other nations telling us we should accept their method of doing things because it works well for them.

Don't know what to say to that, really. I agree our health care system is jacked up, but this is not the way to fix it so everyone is covered. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is free. Not even the air you breathe once the cap and trade system becomes law, because we will all be paying to keep the air clean. But I digress...
 
I guess we'll have to disagree then. I'll leave it at this: my ultimate point with that comparison wasn't on the substance of each subject matter, but of the principle of the argument that only one bill should not be grounds to be greatly moved into action by.
Pick another hypothetical bill to compare it against for a better argument. Compare it to an omnibus transportation or agriculture bill. Because of different polarization, comparing it to a gun bill doesn't add to the honest exploration of the idea, it detracts from it.

I should have actually made a poll at the start of this, darn it.
But the demographics of this 14-page-deep thread on a semi-retro large muscle sedan message board, of whom the participants have self-selected themselves, are already doubly skewed. So it is not a good litmus test.

Internet opinion polls in sidebars are not reliable datasets because the extremists vote disproportionately. Moderates shrug/guess/make up an answer/or decide not to vote. People who are strongly for or against a topic are eager to have their voice known in whatever format they can access.
 
XOPHER - How quicly some forget the "Code Pink" and Seattle "peaceful demonstrations".

Apparently you have forgotten the left wing movie released about a sitting President being assasinated, including actual footage of the President.
 
Communisim - "a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party."

Socialism - " 1.a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles."

Having had over 750,000 battle casualties in Europe to save Europe from the National Socialist German Worker's Party we are very familiar with the so called "benevolance of Socialism".

Don't tell that to the Oba Mao followers, you'll be branded an extremist! But that's not as bad as the Department of Homeland Security branding me a potential terrorist because I'm a disgruntled veteran who believes in the First and Second Amendments. :(
 
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Really?

XOPHER - How quicly some forget the "Code Pink" and Seattle "peaceful demonstrations".
Tell me more.

Apparently you have forgotten the left wing movie released about a sitting President being assasinated, including actual footage of the President.
Are you referring to JFK? If it's a different movie, then I have indeed forgetten it. Please expound on this idea.
 
What cameras? What reactions? Got a link?

Yeah, I know FoxNews:rolleyes: but it's the first article that came up.



Tea Party Protesters Dispute Reports of Slurs, Spitting Against Dem Lawmakers

Monday, March 22, 2010
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A man was arrested for spitting on a congressman. No, he was let go.
Protesters shouted the "n-word" at black lawmakers. Witnesses say it never happened.
A gay congressman was called a slur. Yet he was accused of swearing at someone in the crowd before that.
These are the conflicting claims that have emerged from the series of tense encounters lawmakers say they endured with Tea Party protesters on Capitol Hill Saturday, in the final raucous hours before Congress approved the health care reform bill.
Claims that the protesters hurled anti-gay and racist epithets at them tore through the blogosphere in the run-up to the vote and were used to decry the protests, but Tea Party supporters are challenging those accounts, saying they didn't hear them, or at least that those responsible were not part of the Tea Party protest.
"Never did I hear any type of racial slur," said William Owens, a black Tea Party activist from Nevada who joined in the D.C. protests Saturday.
Here's what is known about Saturday's run-ins:

Several black lawmakers say that as they were walking by protesters on their way to a procedural vote on Capitol Hill, a group of demonstrators shouted at them and called them the n-word.
"They were just shouting, harassing," Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., a legend of the civil rights movement, said.
In addition, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, a black congressman from Missouri, said he was spit on by someone in the crowd who was later detained.
Plus someone shouted a gay slur at Frank in the hallway of a House office building.
"Today's protests against health insurance reform saw a rash of despicable, inflammatory behavior," House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said.
Now here's where those accounts are called into question:
Though the claims of racist epithets against Lewis and other congressmen drew a lot of media attention, witnesses say they never heard such language and YouTube videos have surfaced that show protesters booing and shouting "Kill the Bill" but not shouting the n-word.
Kay Fischer, a protester from North Carolina, said she was watching the black lawmakers walk by and, like Owens, heard nothing of the sort.
Asked about such claims, Emanuel spokeswoman Mary Petrovic noted that the online videos of the incident are under a minute — and so don't show the entire encounter. She and stood by her boss' account.
"He heard slurs," she said.
There's another oddity about that incident. Cleaver's office initially claimed that a protester was arrested after spitting on him, but that the congressman decided not to press charges.
However, U.S. Capitol Police said the protester was never arrested. He was only detained and put in handcuffs, then released.
Sgt. Kimberly Schneider, spokeswoman for the Capitol Police, told FoxNews.com the individual was released because Cleaver couldn't identify him.
"There were no elements of a crime, and the individual wasn't able to be positively identified," she said. "(Cleaver) was unable to positively identify."
Asked about the Capitol Police account, Petrovic said it's not that Cleaver couldn't identify the suspect. It's that he wouldn't identify the suspect, because the police would have been "obligated" to make an arrest, which he didn't want.
"He was aware of that obligation and so did not make an identification," she said. "He saw who did it and he could have identified that person if necessary. But he chose not to."
As for the initial claim that the the individual was arrested, Petrovic said staff members mistakenly presumed he had been arrested because he was in handcuffs.
The account of the run-in with Frank gets a little more bizarre.
Though reporters heard someone call the Massachusetts Democrat, who is gay, a "faggot," and Frank and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer publicly condemned the slur, Fischer said the incident was not so cut and dry.
Most importantly, Fischer said Frank was the first to start using salty language.
She said she and a half-dozen other protesters were waiting outside a committee room in the Longworth House Office Building on Saturday for about 45 minutes when Frank finally emerged. He was mobbed by reporters, she said, and the protesters started shouting things like, "Kill the bill." Then she said Frank snapped at them.
"He looked at me and said, 'F--- you,'" she said.
Shortly after that, she said, a tall man with brown hair, who hadn't been chanting with the other protesters at all, walked up and said "fag" to Frank.
This has started to sprout some conspiracy theories.
Fischer said the protesters immediately admonished him and told him not to say things like that.
"I have gay friends. ... There were a bunch of people moaning like, 'Oh God,'" she said.
But she said the guy "disappeared" quickly and that was the end of it.
Fischer said she has no idea where he came from, and alleged he was a plant, though she couldn't prove it.
"I think it was staged," she said.
Frank's office was unable to provide clarity.
Frank spokesman Harry Gural said his office does not know the identity of the man who shouted the slur but said it's "highly unlikely" that anything was staged.
And he couldn't fathom his boss swearing at a protester.
"I really doubt that," Gural said. "I've never heard him use that language with people before."
 
That has been proven the case almost every time.These are phony accusations by the left.One time a reporter made it up that some one shouted Kill Him at an Obama rally.It turned out that the reporter made it up and reported it. Eric Cantors Richmond campaign office was shot at but nobody cares because he is Republican. A black cancer patient in a wheelchair was beat up last year at a tea party in St, Louis by SEIU people but that is OK because he was a Tea Partier. Why did Pelosi and that group chose a "We are going to shove it down your throat attitude" by carrying that gavel and walking through the protesters?
 
Dr., the "benchmarks" are set by whom? Dr., who determines "normal surgery"?

The Health Board of the respective province. Each Province or Territory does it differently. The Federal Government budgets each of the 13 health boards a given funding cap, and the boards determine how best to spend that money.

My mother had her knee replaced with in 2 weeks from injury, it was not a "priority surgery". Our area has had the largest population displacement in our Nation's history resulting in a shortage of most services.

My father had cancer surgery with in 6 weeks of symptoms and 2 weeks of that was due to us researching alternatives.

Care here is administered by Doctors. They decide priories, just like your doctors decide.

I posted that Federal workers make ~$40K more in pay and benefits than their private sector equivalent. Our Gov't increases cost of everything it does and is unable to forecast with any reasonableness future expenditures.

We have a diverse population consisting of groups who live 10-15% less and have a high incidence of certain illinesses.

We also have a diverse population. Certain cancers are prevalent with our native population in the north east portion of the province, and there is an unusually hig ocurrence of Chrons disease, Lupus and ulcerative colitis in the Province of Alberta.

That's the benefit of provincially run health - we can adapt for these differences as compared to Canada or North America in general.

The Cancer survival rate for men in Canada is 58% and for men in the USA is 66%.

What forms of cancer? I suspect these are more lies you have been fed.

"In the report, data from almost 2 million cancer patients from 31 countries showed that the U.S. has the highest survival rates for breast and prostate cancer, Japan has the highest survival rates for colon and rectal cancers in men and France has the highest survival rates for colon and rectal cancer in women. "

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080716/cancer_statistics_080716/20080716/

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know what you expect me to say about your specific cases here. It's good that they are better though. I'm sure there are many people here with similar stories. My mother had inoperable lung cancer. But they did some fancy radiation treatment that cause her to go into remission for 6 years before the tumours returned. They were 6 great years.

I do know that the University of Alberta is also doing one of the biggest trials of cancer treatments in the world. Using DCA to see if it cures many forms of cancer without radiation. But drug companies won't fund the study, because their patent has expired and there is little profit in the study.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/06/0624253

As my father's surgeon said "cancer is a family business", so I have a rather keen interest.

I would be too. Diabetes and stroke run in my family, which is why I do everything I can to manage it. Strange concept isn't it? We are responsible for our own health. The government isn't involved.
 
So Health Care Bill; Yes or No? Judges?

Randy: "I'm not feelin' it, dawg."

Paula::beer::rasta::drink:

Simon: "What....was....that? You disgust me. You put the "ill" in "Bill". GTFO, noob."
 
So Health Care Bill; Yes or No? Judges?

Because the Healthcare Bill was presented in such an open and 'transparent' method, there was no obvious backroom deal making nor political pay-offs for votes, and it is only 2,400 pages long...
I feel confident that our elected officials have listened to the voting public and done us right!

I mean...look at how successful Social Security is!

:rolleyes:
 
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The poll I saw says 62% of the public want the Republicans to keep opposing the healthcare bill. If it is such a good thing for us I think we would know it. Why do they have to travel nationwide to try and sell it now that it is law? Maybe one thing is now someone knows what it contains. The other is when companies start layoffs because of it they are trying to save a few congressional seats in November. I am waiting on my free car from them.
 
Keep one thing in mind guys some of this fire is being fueled by big business

And YES Health CARE IN AMERICA IS BIG BUSINESS!!!!!

All the other times this country as tryed to impliment a better health care system big Buisness has greased the plams of the men in office that would vote in a way to make them richer and keep money flowing properly into their pockets in the long run.

Nixon and HMO's is the best example. That is what started the real problems behind the Health Insurance industry and how people have to pay and they decied what we can and can not get for proceedures coverd by the people you pay coverage for these same services.

Look almost everyone in the health care INDUSTRY is about to lose money that is being put into their pockets from each and every one of US!

They could not bribe the right people this time to stop the bill so now they are handing money to the individual state's willing to take the bribe's to take up their cause!

They are feeding into the fears of many over change to fuel their need to keep the profits going in the way they are use to living, THE GOOD LIFE!

Now that it is about to change for them they will do anything and everything to cause a problem and to fuel the debate rather than let everyone calm down and get a good picture of what is going to happen and how this can be made to work as best as possable for everyone in this country.

Do we need cosmetic surgery for people who want to look younger and better? For people who have been disfigured yes it is a great thing and I would say needed but not for people who want to feel younger.

DO we need Lipo suction when it is only for cosmetic reasons and not due to health care needs?

And other country's have a problem getting good doctors and enough of them BECAUSE comming to AMERICA and getting RICH is a much better prospect!

Live over seas and get a free education so they have no bills to pay back and then come to America and start to practice to become rich! This needs to be stoped YES! Or No?

There are a lot of pictures to look at when it comes to the health care INDUSTRY and BIG BUSINESS is making sure we do not look @ them in the first place!
 
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