CT Shooting

[rayjay]

Uh, no, he didn't. HE didn't do anything other than effectively say "yeah, the killer saw me with a gun so he decided to kill himself."

Proximity does not grant causality.

And since Ann Coulter has made it here to be considered an "expert" on something other than which brand of tinfoil to use for the hats...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings

I don't agree with everything in the above article, but it raises some good points.

He drew down on him, but did not shoot as he did not have a safe shot, whereby the scum went around the corner and croaked himself. Perfect fit for the active shooter model. Cowards, period. Thats according to local newspaper. Keep eating the fodder your fed by the national media.

 

[rayjay]

Columbine had an armed security guard with another nearby. That is the worst school shooting on record. For how long, is the question.

Reducing magazine capacity makes the shooter reload more often and therefore reduces innocent deaths. Because...math.

There is nothing for "dummies" about not wanting 30+ round magazines available for non-military personnel. It is simple logic.

Actually it was a police officer that followed the department procedure as it was then written. He retreated to parking lot awaiting backup, IIRC. That would never happen today under current training and doctrine. Somebody taking out the active shooter reduces casualities. Harden the target and they move on.
Quite frankly I have never seen so much disinformation fed to the public as I have after this tragedy. We still allow 30 people per day (CDC stat) to be killed by intoxicated drivers in this country. Why is that?

 

[MOTOWN]

Columbine had an armed security guard with another nearby. That is the worst school shooting on record. For how long, is the question.

Reducing magazine capacity makes the shooter reload more often and therefore reduces innocent deaths. Because...math.

There is nothing for "dummies" about not wanting 30+ round magazines available for non-military personnel. It is simple logic.

Yeah ok you have no clue! but ok:bs:

 

[jerrym3]

When I think of sll the brave men and women that died for this country so that this SOB could have access to a legal military weapon owned legally by his mother, and used that weapon of mass destruction to kill 20 little kids.............

I just don't understand.

And the answer is, arm the schools? Great, if we're back in the 1800's, and schools consist of one big room.

And, disregard the schoolbuses, playgrounds, public ballfields, merry go rounds in malls.....just arm the schools?

I don't know.

I look at the pictures of Muslims jumping up and down in the streets, all waving their rifles over their heads, and I think, aren't we better than that? Is that what the USA has lowered itself to?

Go ahead, jump all over me if it makes you feel good. I really don't care. Someone needs to talk sense.

 

[rayjay]

When I think of sll the brave men and women that died for this country so that this SOB could have access to a legal military weapon owned legally by his mother, and used that weapon of mass destruction to kill 20 little kids.............

I want to clear up a misconception. The rifle used is not a military weapon. It is not an assault rifle. AR is not short for assault rifle. Military weapons are select fire, civilian versions are not, nor can most citizens own one as the pundents would have you believe. IIRC only two states allow it for civilians, after a ATF check and paying a federal tax to own it. Conn is not one of them. It was such a hassle that my police agency did even not attempt to get the tri burst version for use in such a scenario.
AR15 stands for Armalite Rifle #15, which they sold the rights to that name decades ago to Colt. An Armalite rifle is a M15, because they sold the name. AR15 is generic, as Xerox was for copying. AK 47 does stand for automatic rifle Kalashnikov, 1947.

Now get this one, the latest I read else where is that he did not even use the rifle, but instead used the handguns. The rifle was recovered later from his trunk. I have no idea if thats true, false, whatever. I do know they were reporting a second shooter at the scene and several arrests. Non of these have been heard about since. It not only was reported live, I heard it on XM radio coverage, (person removed from the woods) but the dispatch tapes support this. I would really like to know the truth here.

As I've said, I have never in my life seen so much disinformation put out to the public. Bloomberg made a fool of himself in an interview if you were knowledgeable. The female reporter actually was and called him out on it, he shrugged his shoulders. You really should know some relavent facts before opening ones mouth. Especially when you are supporting taking away the rights of millions and millions of law abiding citizens that would never even think of doing such a thing. Scare and terror tactics at their finest at the expense of the victims of this tragedy.

 

[Spectragod]

I want to clear up a misconception. The rifle used is not a military weapon. It is not an assault rifle. AR is not short for assault rifle. Military weapons are select fire, civilian versions are not, nor can most citizens own one as the pundents would have you believe. IIRC only two states allow it for civilians, after a ATF check and paying a federal tax to own it. Conn is not one of them. It was such a hassle that my police agency did even not attempt to get the tri burst version for use in such a scenario.
AR15 stands for Armalite Rifle #15, which they sold the rights to that name decades ago to Colt. An Armalite rifle is a M15, because they sold the name. AR15 is generic, as Xerox was for copying. AK 47 does stand for automatic rifle Kalashnikov, 1947.

Now get this one, the latest I read else where is that he did not even use the rifle, but instead used the handguns. The rifle was recovered later from his trunk. I have no idea if thats true, false, whatever. I do know they were reporting a second shooter at the scene and several arrests. Non of these have been heard about since. It not only was reported live, I heard it on XM radio coverage, (person removed from the woods) but the dispatch tapes support this. I would really like to know the truth here.

As I've said, I have never in my life seen so much disinformation put out to the public. Bloomberg made a fool of himself in an interview if you were knowledgeable. The female reporter actually was and called him out on it, he shrugged his shoulders. You really should know some relavent facts before opening ones mouth. Especially when you are supporting taking away the rights of millions and millions of law abiding citizens that would never even think of doing such a thing. Scare and terror tactics at their finest at the expense of the victims of this tragedy.

And why should Bloomberg have any say in what happens across the U.S.? He should worry why HIS city has so much gun violence, when you cannot legally own a gun in that city, without going through major hoops and $$$ to back it up.

But your right, the semi autos are not assault weapons, just because the look like one, that is usually the only similarity. Just as parts off an Israeli Uzi won't transfer to an Uzi in the states, 2 completely different weapons, people buy these to collect, shoot for fun, in competition etc.,

I want an explanation of the 2 shooters that were originally reported, multiple times....... I have a theory, just won't post it here, I can't wait to see what the media spin is though.

 

[jerrym3]

I want to clear up a misconception. The rifle used is not a military weapon. It is not an assault rifle. AR is not short for assault rifle. Military weapons are select fire, civilian versions are not, nor can most citizens own one as the pundents would have you believe. IIRC only two states allow it for civilians, after a ATF check and paying a federal tax to own it. Conn is not one of them. It was such a hassle that my police agency did even not attempt to get the tri burst version for use in such a scenario.
AR15 stands for Armalite Rifle #15, which they sold the rights to that name decades ago to Colt. An Armalite rifle is a M15, because they sold the name. AR15 is generic, as Xerox was for copying. AK 47 does stand for automatic rifle Kalashnikov, 1947.

Now get this one, the latest I read else where is that he did not even use the rifle, but instead used the handguns. The rifle was recovered later from his trunk. I have no idea if thats true, false, whatever. I do know they were reporting a second shooter at the scene and several arrests. Non of these have been heard about since. It not only was reported live, I heard it on XM radio coverage, (person removed from the woods) but the dispatch tapes support this. I would really like to know the truth here.

As I've said, I have never in my life seen so much disinformation put out to the public. Bloomberg made a fool of himself in an interview if you were knowledgeable. The female reporter actually was and called him out on it, he shrugged his shoulders. You really should know some relavent facts before opening ones mouth. Especially when you are supporting taking away the rights of millions and millions of law abiding citizens that would never even think of doing such a thing. Scare and terror tactics at their finest at the expense of the victims of this tragedy.

Guess we're hearing different information, and I apologize for using wrong terminolgy regarding his choice of weapon, because we all know that that's the most important issue here, not how we'll guard kids in schoolbuses or playgrounds or anywhere where we don't have an armed guard.

I read he used the semi in the school, and a rifle was found in his trunk.

How did these innocent kids get shot as much as 11 times with handguns?

And, had there been another possible shooter, the statewide/nationwide search would be on every news outlet known to man to warn others that a killer is on the loose.

I believe there was one killer who did this, and one alone. But, with the legal weapon he had, he did the work of many.

I'm sure you know many people that you would not trust with your Marauder, yet it's OK for them to own a weapon?

Where's the logic in that?

 

[PonyUP]

And why should Bloomberg have any say in what happens across the U.S.? He should worry why HIS city has so much gun violence, when you cannot legally own a gun in that city, without going through major hoops and $$$ to back it up.

But your right, the semi autos are not assault weapons, just because the look like one, that is usually the only similarity. Just as parts off an Israeli Uzi won't transfer to an Uzi in the states, 2 completely different weapons, people buy these to collect, shoot for fun, in competition etc.,

I want an explanation of the 2 shooters that were originally reported, multiple times....... I have a theory, just won't post it here, I can't wait to see what the media spin is though.

I agree there is still a lot to learn, most of which we will probably never hear. At the end of the day, the answer can't be more guns, just like the answer to all our economic problems can't be cut taxes.

There is too little research and background done on people buying guns. I will submit once again, that a law abiding citizen purchasing a gun should not care how deep we want to dig. It should be a challenge to buy a gun, but a breeze if you are a person that should own one.
Per an article I read in the tribune, geographically the south owns the highest percentage of legal weapons, and yet New Orleans, Nashville, and Atlanta still have high crime rates.
Everyone can get a drivers license, doesn't mean everyone should drive. I've seen some of the most idiotic actions of drivers take place since I moved to Atlanta, now picture these sane idiots have a gun, get loaded at a bar with their gun, I'm sure a whole lot of good can come from that.

The current bill being proposed is crap, and Ray, I heard the same reports he just used the hand guns

Mandatory training, continual qualification, deep background checks including medical and mental history of proposed owner and the immediate family.
Will it prevent this? No, does it help keep guns away from people who should not be buying them?maybe

At the end of the day, the country is crying for something to be done, politically speaking bring pro gun right now is suicide. Producing another bill to reduce mags and restrict rifles, no teeth, but you look proactive to your constituents.


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

 

[rayjay]

jerry, I was listening to Fox's live television feed on the radio while driving home from Syracuse, so I heard quite a bit of it. They reported a second person in the woods, officers with drawn weapons, subject being brought out. Dispatch tapes state that one unit called in from the parking lot with two "proned out" and associated traffic. ??? What happened to these three people? Were they taken into custody or not. There was video of the woods incident.

What bothers me is the public at large is being led to believe that gun control is number one issue here and will keep this from happening again. Bull hockey. It will not stop. It might slow down if the media would stop sensationalizing every gun crime that occurrs in the country. They seem to forget that the severely mentally ill and criminals do not give a rat's petute about the law. People need to get a clue that gun free zone = open season for these nuts. A off duty police oficer in NYS can not legally carry his firearm on school grounds. How much sense does that make? That would mean had Newtown happened here the Troopers would have to arrest their own Members who responded from home, off duty. Really???

How about going kookoo over the thousands killed per year at the hands of drunk drivers, including children. For some reason that gets a pass.

Problem is Spectra the media goes to people like Bloomberg and Shumer to whip it up. The sheeple listen.

Ponyup, the problem is the mental health records are HIPPA protected. Until we do something about putting that info into data bases, we've still got a problem. I have no issues with background checks. You should see what you have to go through here in NYS to obtain a pistol permit. You have to allow a mental health check or the application will not be considered. Its a lengthy, indepth process. NYC = forgettaboutit.... FWIW, my name and info generates a hold everytime I buy a firearm. I know why and its nothing to do with me, its also obvious its not me, but the drones at the FBI hold me anyway.

 

[PonyUP]

jerry, I was listening to Fox's live television feed on the radio while driving home from Syracuse, so I heard quite a bit of it. They reported a second person in the woods, officers with drawn weapons, subject being brought out. Dispatch tapes state that one unit called in from the parking lot with two "proned out" and associated traffic. ??? What happened to these three people? Were they taken into custody or not. There was video of the woods incident.

What bothers me is the public at large is being led to believe that gun control is number one issue here and will keep this from happening again. Bull hockey. It will not stop. It might slow down if the media would stop sensationalizing every gun crime that occurrs in the country. They seem to forget that the severely mentally ill and criminals do not give a rat's petute about the law. People need to get a clue that gun free zone = open season for these nuts. A off duty police oficer in NYS can not legally carry his firearm on school grounds. How much sense does that make? That would mean had Newtown happened here the Troopers would have to arrest their own Members who responded from home, off duty. Really???

How about going kookoo over the thousands killed per year at the hands of drunk drivers, including children. For some reason that gets a pass.

Problem is Spectra the media goes to people like Bloomberg and Shumer to whip it up. The sheeple listen.

Ponyup, the problem is the mental health records are HIPPA protected. Until we do something about putting that info into data bases, we've still got a problem. I have no issues with background checks. You should see what you have to go through here in NYS to obtain a pistol permit. You have to allow a mental health check or the application will not be considered. Its a lengthy, indepth process. NYC = forgettaboutit.... FWIW, my name and info generates a hold everytime I buy a firearm. I know why and its nothing to do with me, its also obvious its not me, but the drones at the FBI hold me anyway.

Well put Ray, everyone wants an answer, I guess the truth is, there isn't one


The Ice Bucket Approves of this message

 

[GAMike]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but couldn't.. In support of Ray's comments below, I would Two more things..... What about incidents where armed law abiding citizens have inserted themselves in situations and thwarted a crime/saved someones life????

Again the media never covers these situations with the same ferocity as they do, daily gun related violence that happens in every city in this country.

Second point.... The south as Ponyup has pointed out has more registered gun owners per capita...... Yet Chicago (& Gary), The "D", D.C./Baltimore, Oakland, L.V., STL. Are not in the south.... Sure we have N.O., ATL, Memphis, Miami+++ What does all this mean? In states/cities where there are very strict gun ordinances, there are still too many people being wounded/killed with guns......... The numbers don't really matter, because its beyond ridiculous..... Life is cheap these days... Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart, legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "thats enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... Thats why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument.

The real question for America...... How do we as a society prove the value of every human life, and how do we get young people to believe the life of another human is invaluable and sacred???? Gun legislation won't matter if this question is ever answered and communicated by the media, educators and parents..... JMHO.... Sorry for the vent... Just an opinionated concealed carry guy frustrated by a media fed society that lacks a worthy & honorable "code" between people(s). Maybe One day we will get there.... It certainly won't be legislated thats for sure....

jerry, I was listening to Fox's live television feed on the radio while driving home from Syracuse, so I heard quite a bit of it. They reported a second person in the woods, officers with drawn weapons, subject being brought out. Dispatch tapes state that one unit called in from the parking lot with two "proned out" and associated traffic. ??? What happened to these three people? Were they taken into custody or not. There was video of the woods incident.

What bothers me is the public at large is being led to believe that gun control is number one issue here and will keep this from happening again. Bull hockey. It will not stop. It might slow down if the media would stop sensationalizing every gun crime that occurrs in the country. They seem to forget that the severely mentally ill and criminals do not give a rat's petute about the law. People need to get a clue that gun free zone = open season for these nuts. A off duty police oficer in NYS can not legally carry his firearm on school grounds. How much sense does that make? That would mean had Newtown happened here the Troopers would have to arrest their own Members who responded from home, off duty. Really???

How about going kookoo over the thousands killed per year at the hands of drunk drivers, including children. For some reason that gets a pass.

Problem is Spectra the media goes to people like Bloomberg and Shumer to whip it up. The sheeple listen.

Ponyup, the problem is the mental health records are HIPPA protected. Until we do something about putting that info into data bases, we've still got a problem. I have no issues with background checks. You should see what you have to go through here in NYS to obtain a pistol permit. You have to allow a mental health check or the application will not be considered. Its a lengthy, indepth process. NYC = forgettaboutit.... FWIW, my name and info generates a hold everytime I buy a firearm. I know why and its nothing to do with me, its also obvious its not me, but the drones at the FBI hold me anyway.

 

[Ladyhawke]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but couldn't.. In support of Ray's comments below, I would Two more things..... What about incidents where armed law abiding citizens have inserted themselves in situations and thwarted a crime/saved someones life????

Again the media never covers these situations with the same ferocity as they do, daily gun related violence that happens in every city in this country.

Second point.... The south as Ponyup has pointed out has more registered gun owners per capita...... Yet Chicago (& Gary), The "D", D.C./Baltimore, Oakland, L.V., STL. Are not in the south.... Sure we have N.O., ATL, Memphis, Miami+++ What does all this mean? In states/cities where there are very strict gun ordinances, there are still too many people being wounded/killed with guns......... The numbers don't really matter, because its beyond ridiculous..... Life is cheap these days... Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "thats enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... Thats why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument.

The real question for America...... How do we as a society prove the value of every human life, and how do we get young people to believe the life of another human is invaluable and sacred???? Gun legislation won't matter if this question is ever answered and communicated by the media, educators and parents..... JMHO.... Sorry for the vent... Just an opinionated concealed carry guy frustrated by a media fed society that lacks a worthy & honorable "code" between people(s). Maybe One day we will get there.... It certainly won't be legislated thats for sure....

Thank you, Mike.

 

[rayjay]

Spot on Mike. Someone please show me anyplace in the second Amendment where it mentions sportsman or hunting.

We need a combination of things to happen to avert tragedies like Newtown. I fear that the demonized gun will be the only issue. If that is the case, another Newtown will happen. Its just a matter of where and when.

We are not being told the truth here. IIRC one of the victims was shot 31 times. Thats a rage killing, plain and simple. Why? What did these poor kids do to this monster? Did he think they would just pop right back up and reset?

 

[Spectragod]

Spot on Mike. Someone please show me anyplace in the second Amendment where it mentions sportsman or hunting.

We need a combination of things to happen to avert tragedies like Newtown. I fear that the demonized gun will be the only issue. If that is the case, another Newtown will happen. Its just a matter of where and when.

We are not being told the truth here. IIRC one of the victims was shot 31 times. Thats a rage killing, plain and simple. Why? What did these poor kids do to this monster? Did he think they would just pop right back up and reset?

Going to happen again, and it did today, 4 firefighters shot at a fire they were responding to, of course, this may not be tragic to everyone like small children. So lets see...... all the sheeple are feeling so sorry for the kids and the teachers that were shot, now they are voluntarily turning their guns over to the local and state police, really?

Do they figure they are going to go out and shoot some kids? I wonder what these sheeple are going to do when crime comes knocking on their door, unable to protect themselves, they will call the police and wait, I'm guessing that the police will be overwhelmed with calls and response time will be a memory of what it used to be.

We need to straighten out all the nut jobs that are on the loose, dump all the violent video games, violent tv shows, violent movies, put God back into this country, or it will only go down the drain even more.

I won't even get into late term ********................:mad2:No tragedy there, were more worried about guns as opposed to actual murder. :shake:

 

[GAMike]

So I am not religious per se', but I understand the necessary balance it offers to a fragile mind. I don't mean this as an insult. I beleive in God..... I somewhat disdain organized religion as it panders for funds to continue its preachings. That being said, I understand the balance it provides for people who may othewise come unhinged in its absense.......

Whatever the pressure that keeps people from doing the unthinkable, Christian religion in modern times is One of the greatest barriers to evil, because it offers a "compass" of sorts. It checks its own to a greater degree..... Mainstream Muslims seem to be peaceful, but how vigilant are they with extremists in their midst?

Anywho, as a society, we owe it to our fellow neighbors and citizens to hold up a "standard" of acceptable behaviour. If the basis of that comes from religion? Great..... If it comes from parental teachings? Ok.... More often than not, it comes from a cocktail of both+++. The least of which is Govt who wants to appear pious and rightious, but is anything but protective of their own ability to source/retain power.......

Lets open our eyes, to who protects our individual person, and how we can ea. aid/protect ea. other daily. I am my brothers/neighbors/friends keeper.... Are you????

Merry Christmas!:beer:

 

[Spectragod]

So I am not religious per se', but I understand the necessary balance it offers to a fragile mind. I don't mean this as an insult. I beleive in God..... I somewhat disdain organized religion as it panders for funds to continue its preachings. That being said, I understand the balance it provides for people who may othewise come unhinged in its absense.......

Whatever the pressure that keeps people from doing the unthinkable, Christian religion in modern times is One of the greatest barriers to evil, because it offers a "compass" of sorts. It checks its own to a greater degree..... Mainstream Muslims seem to be peaceful, but how vigilant are they with extremists in their midst?

Anywho, as a society, we owe it to our fellow neighbors and citizens to hold up a "standard" of acceptable behaviour. If the basis of that comes from religion? Great..... If it comes from parental teachings? Ok.... More often than not, it comes from a cocktail of both+++. The least of which is Govt who wants to appear pious and rightious, but is anything but protective of their own ability to source/retain power.......

Lets open our eyes, to who protects our individual person, and how we can ea. aid/protect ea. other daily. I am my brothers/neighbors/friends keeper.... Are you????

Merry Christmas!:beer:

I am certainly my brother's keeper.....

You are 100% right on the above, I only wished I could have phrased it better.

I understand the pandering of funds, it keeps the doors open, just like casino's need people to lose, and this board needs people to donate to keep it running, nothing stays open for long without a financial backing.

Merry Christmas.... :beer:

 

[duhtroll]

I guess we need to arm all the firefighters now, too. Teachers, firefighters, mall cops and mall workers, the list will go on and on. Sorry, grandma - the firefighter can't carry you down the stairs on his back anymore because he has to carry a gun and wear body armor in addition to all of his other gear.

Paying for the security in the schools in addition to all of the above as proposed by the NRA will cost quite a bit, too. I guess the gun culture is OK with the inevitable tax increases that will come from arming everyone.

The Oregon mall shooting was not stopped by an armed civilian. The facts are the shooter's gun jammed and he was a horrible shot to begin with. Nick Meli's story has not been corroborated by the Sheriff or anyone else so far. And even if he DID pull his weapon, the only person who could answer why the shooter ran away is the shooter himself. Given that most of the other shooters in mass public situations kill themselves, it also makes perfect sense that since he couldn't clear the weapon he realized he was out of options. We'll wait for the security video on that one.

As far as the Columbine shootings, the security officer in question exchanged fire with one of the shooters to no avail. So much for training. Could Neil Gardner, the security officer/deputy in question, have prevented additional deaths? Maybe - but that is unknowable. The argument being presented by the NRA isn't about that, however.

The NRA position of armed security (or "hardening the target" as above) as a deterrent obviously didn't apply to Columbine, because both shooters knew there were armed security personnel present yet still chose that target vs. plenty of softer targets available.

RE: large cap. magazines: It takes a few seconds to reload and those few seconds could save lives. I guess people are still going to deny the math and say my information is wrong, but that doesn't change the facts.

The argument against banning large capacity magazines is essentially "it won't stop everyone or eliminate all innocent deaths, so why bother making any changes?"

I asked earlier why any citizen would need large capacity magazines with which to hunt, or why people need to be able to buy guns without background checks. So far no one has stepped up on that one.

Why are those two changes unreasonable?

 

[GAMike]

I asked earlier why any citizen would need large capacity magazines with which to hunt, or why people need to be able to buy guns without background checks. So far no one has stepped up on that one.

Why are those two changes unreasonable?

From an earlier post
"Do you want a Govt. that does not have your specific interest at heart legislating the choices you have to determine how best to protect your family? You know the gun control lobby will never reach a point where they say, "thats enough legislation"..... The only way they will ever say that is for it to be illegal for citizens to have a gun of any kind. Period....... Thats why every move has to be "checked' on both sides of the argument."

Sorry Troll, but I did answer your question (maybe not in a format you desired, but answered none the less). Your reasking your question is exactly why the process moves slow..... Keep asking the same question until you get the answer(s) you agree with..... Sorry but that is a baseline liberal tactic, for anything they deem a threat to the liberal agenda.


I personally, would not mind a more extensive background check (the subject of magazine size, is a publicity stunt and thats all), but the conversation won't stop there and you know it.... It will just open the flood gates. Then even those who don't want to be "sheep" will become, or become an outlaw.....

 

[rayjay]

Everybody is entilted to their opinion. Why did this guy in my home town only serve 18 years? I'd like to know the opinion of the parole board. Oh, and as a ex felon the law says he can't have guns of any type. Bad murder breaking the law... Laws are wonderful, as long as people follow them. Criminals do not. We had a perfect example Monday.

 

[cat in the hat]

"The Bill of Rights," as introduced to the first US Congress and comprising what became the first ten ammendments to the US Constitution, is one of the key founding documents of the United States. It is not only a vital symbol of our country and the freedom that we have always strived for, it is a landmark in world history.

No previous generation has seen a need to delete anything in "The Bill of Rights" or make any changes to it since it's ratification in 1791. Admittedly, there are a lot of people that would like to do that very thing; they sincerely believe that they are more qualified to determine the principles that should guide this country than Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and the other men who founded it.

Today, those people would choose to repeal the 2nd Ammendment; it is an obsolete relic written with feather pens by men in powdered wigs. People don't need guns, it's stupid. It is not suited for the modern world, it must go for the common good.

Once that boundary is crossed, what next ? Will some less enlightened administration find trials to be adverse to the common good some day, or decide that the unwarranted seizure of property would be a great asset to it ? Will some future "President" decide that freedom of speech is inconvenient ?

The question isn't whether or not people need guns, it's whether or not people need the Bill of Rights. Much of the freedom and stability that we have enjoyed in this country for more than two centuries can be attributed to the strength and enduring value of the core guiding principles embodied by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Either we continue to stand for them, or we cease to be the same country.