"Is anything really that American anymore?"

04MEMA

04MEMA

Prodigioso
Hey Guys, thanks for the feedback.



Online forums make it difficult to convey tone of voice - so here's the intended tone of voice: friendly and open to the possibility that I'm way off here okay?

Stew said:
I don't know if you have noticed, but most of the Fords coming out are Mazda (Japanes) based or Volvo (Swiss I thing) based. the Crown vic is made in Canada I believe..... Then there GM turning Subarus into Saabs, and basing a many of their cars on underpinnings based on their foriegn subsidiaries... So, is anything really that American anymore?
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Boy that's an interesting question.

If an American company has control (that doesn't mean they design or build it) and gets the profits (if there are any) from the product, then that product is American right?

In specific response to what was sited Ford owns or controls to some degree (I honestly don't know) Mazda ,Volvo, Jag, Aston Martin and Land Rover. At the end of the day If those companies turn a profit Ford is benefiting to some degree and has some control over those companies. To me that's good. And when Subaru (GM owns 20% of Subuarus parent company) or SAAB (GM owns or controls to some degree) make money GM benefits, I think that's good. The profits from these vehicle sales come back to the company based in the "mother land" who has the control. The performance of American companies to me says something about our country and our people. Yes these operations benefit lots of people in many countries, and that's a realty of our global economy, but I still am patriotic. I want US auto companies to be at the top. That's all. You'll have to forgive me, it's probably hopeless romanticism with regards to patriotism, but the DCX thing was not a merger of equals. It was something else and as far as I'm concerned DCX is a German company. Yes there are alot of Americans who work for that German company and many US assembly plants that assemble those vehicles employing more Americans. Just like with Hondas and Toyotas though, they are not USA based even though they have lots of operations in the States. That's my opinion on the matter. I hope I don't come across as a raving lunatic here? :soapbox:


Petrograde said:
I agree Stew. Our Marauders are made in Canada with Mexican parts.(I'm sure there are some American made parts too) It's just how things are now it seems.

I guess I can settle for "Made in North America" :P
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Here's my opinion and please remember my note about tone above. In my opinion an MM is not a Canadian or Mexican vehicle. It's a big American sedan because Ford makes (Ford assembles it and Canada and has some parts manufactured by a supplier in Mexico) it and Ford is an American company. DCX is making big "American style" sedans and marketing them with the legendary Hemi engine, but it's Germans who are calling the shots at the end of the day, and to me I wish Chrysler wasn't sold off (or whatever happened) and was doing as well or better then they are today. It's funny it took Germans to make the "great American sedan" again. :loco: And the once "world standard" Cadillac is making German inspired sedans that keep getting better and better. So I can see the logic behind your guys' comments.

Certainly a good debate to be had from this topic. Thanks again for the feedback.


Jeff
 
Agreed,

But the computer said I needed more characters to complete the post, so here they are.

You'd think there were enough of them (characters) on this site already, but hey if Logan requires more characters...

Jay
 
04MEMA said:
Hey Guys, thanks for the feedback.



Online forums make it difficult to convey tone of voice - so here's the intended tone of voice: friendly and open to the possibility that I'm way off here okay?



Boy that's an interesting question.

If an American company has control (that doesn't mean they design or build it) and gets the profits (if there are any) from the product, then that product is American right?

In specific response to what was sited Ford owns or controls to some degree (I honestly don't know) Mazda ,Volvo, Jag, Aston Martin and Land Rover. At the end of the day If those companies turn a profit Ford is benefiting to some degree and has some control over those companies. To me that's good. And when Subaru (GM owns 20% of Subuarus parent company) or SAAB (GM owns or controls to some degree) make money GM benefits, I think that's good. The profits from these vehicle sales come back to the company based in the "mother land" who has the control. The performance of American companies to me says something about our country and our people. Yes these operations benefit lots of people in many countries, and that's a realty of our global economy, but I still am patriotic. I want US auto companies to be at the top. That's all. You'll have to forgive me, it's probably hopeless romanticism with regards to patriotism, but the DCX thing was not a merger of equals. It was something else and as far as I'm concerned DCX is a German company. Yes there are alot of Americans who work for that German company and many US assembly plants that assemble those vehicles employing more Americans. Just like with Hondas and Toyotas though, they are not USA based even though they have lots of operations in the States. That's my opinion on the matter. I hope I don't come across as a raving lunatic here? :soapbox:




Here's my opinion and please remember my note about tone above. In my opinion an MM is not a Canadian or Mexican vehicle. It's a big American sedan because Ford makes (Ford assembles it and Canada and has some parts manufactured by a supplier in Mexico) it and Ford is an American company. DCX is making big "American style" sedans and marketing them with the legendary Hemi engine, but it's Germans who are calling the shots at the end of the day, and to me I wish Chrysler wasn't sold off (or whatever happened) and was doing as well or better then they are today. It's funny it took Germans to make the "great American sedan" again. :loco: And the once "world standard" Cadillac is making German inspired sedans that keep getting better and better. So I can see the logic behind your guys' comments.

Certainly a good debate to be had from this topic. Thanks again for the feedback.


Jeff
Click to expand...
Nope!

Welcome to Amerikka, Inc.

Your new world 'corporate' order is ready at McDonalds.

:argue:
 
Definatly all good points. We can take this in yet a 3rd direction too, what about cars built in America? I am personally more concerned with money going into mainstream America's profits. money that goes to support our families, rather than some Head bigwig who wlready has more money than he'll ever need. That said everyone from Toyota, to honda, to BMW have all openbed up plants in the US that provide jobs and hence are lining the pockets of American's who need it. I despise Toyotas and Hondas with a passion. I can't stand the idea that they are superior, but I figure them building some of there cars here is a saving grace and having them as top-sellers is not a bad thing.
Then onto another twist. GM using Toyota and Honda platforms and drivetrains. The vue Redline with it's Honda sourced (imported) 3.5 V6 and the Pontiac Matrix/Toyota Vibe twins (though these are made in California, correct?) Man this is confusing, you can see it in my origional question as what is really American anymoire by all the brand engeineering, or the opsite question (what really isn't American anymore?) by all the Japanese and German brands being made in America and the American cars being made overseas and Imported (weren't most Geos imported Suzukis and now many Suzukis are Imported Daewoos). Geez, this is all cofusing. 500s are Mazda 6s, Saturns running Honda motors, Saabs that are actually Subarus, chrysler running Mercedes Chasis w/ true American big displacement drivetrains, Lincolns that are Jags (or is it vice versa?). GTOs made in Australia, Camrys made in Ky, BMWs made in (I believe) Indiana, the heart of the US police force made in Canada, , etc, etc, etc. hey at least we can sure about thing, all these are made on planet Earth, or are they.......... Coming next week the BMW/Martian connection.... J/K Jeez I need to not be off from work with the flu LOL
 
Like BigDog said...it's all global. For example I used to work for a US automotive company that was laying people off left and right and in my opinion is going to drive itself into the ground so I left on my own accord. I now work for a Japanese company that is hiring US employees left and right. This particular company places its products in "domestic" vehicles. However, the content of the product comes from China, France, US, Mexico and Japan. The product is designed and manufactured here in the US or Mexico or China and it goes to North America assembly plants for final placement in a vehicle. Do I like working for a non US company...no. Do I like having a home and eating...yes.

It's all just a balancing act as each country finds its niche.

Edit: Forgot to mention my belief is wherever the final dollar ends up determines the country of origin. Example: all Mazdas and Volvos are Fords because Ford owns the controlling interest in those brands. Panthers are domestic just as is the GTO...even if it is designed and built down under.
 
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Wow

Great responses folks! Lots of interesting points.

TONE SETTING: FRIENDLY :P

Where's this all going? I mean with regards to the USA as the only remaining super power. Does our auto industry matter that much? If our manufacturing base slips away and we aren't competitive with even steel, what happens if there is a monster war in the future? Will we have the resources in the states to pull it off? Does our discussion even have any bearing on this question? Money = power?

I feel that GM and Ford are barely surviving. They are just scraping by in the profit department and it's their financing divisions that are saving their behinds. That embarasses me.

And as far as the concept of the foreign car manufacturers providing jobs that feed Americans - I don't know if those cars ever get exported from the states. But let's see, if Americans are buying up these cars that are manufactured here, but the net profits go over seas, wouldn't it be better if these Americans bought cars that were built here by American companies? Then we all get jobs and our US companies stay strong right? I think this is why I get so p o'd when I see all the blunders of GM and Ford. Oh well.

And as far as the global comments go - help me out here - please elaborate. What does that mean? That a car is simply a commodity and who gives a sh*t who makes it? Is that how we're expected to start thinking? Seriously, I'm not sure if I'm missing the point of that - so help me out here if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts - very interesting indeed.

Jeff
 
My thinking on the whole foriegn cars built here is that it is giving real Americans real jobs. i knoew a couple people that work in the Toyota Plant here in Ky and they comment on how great a place it is to work. i would MUCH rather see real people getting the money from the cars we buy, that the rich bigwigs. Yes I understand a company needs to make profits to durvive, but I think if a company is willing to put it's money into our workforce, then hell, let em come. I live in a region where jobs are extremely scarece and good jobs are nearly impossible to find. If Toyota or Honda wanted to put a plant here you can bet your asses i would be all for it. Anyways, it is Global. What that means is that when you buy say a 500, some of the profit is going to Mazda which is still mostly their own entity and still Japanese (the new Futura and Lincoln Sephyr are also built on this platform). GM sells a variant of the Toyota Matrix and buys Honda Engines for it/s Sturn trucks. Chrysler uses Mercedes Benz Chassis and tranny parts in it's LX cars/Crossfire (every other vehicle is currently Benz free though). I still see Chrysler as mainly an American company. not only the cars, but their parts are manufactured here (even the Benz Tranny in the LX is built in, i believe Indiana). Also I believe from what i have read, alot of their profits remain here too with American investors. That could be wrong though, i will need to check on it. i just don't think it is fair to dismiss Chrysler as not American when that just isn't true. There is FAR moire red, white and blue in their cars than Kraut.....
 
I would like to think that the last two domestic auto mfgr's we have are smart enough to compete globally and be very aggressive about it...meaning they will use components manufactured by foreign and domestic companies and these same mfgr's will sell their cars in foreign lands. Let's not forget that Hondas and Toyotas use products designed and made by American companies. Therefore this global thing is reciprocal. And so what if Honda and Toyota build products here in the US that don’t get exported. Our very own GM and Ford operate plants all around the world that don’t employee Americans and they hardly export product from this country anyways. Yet, Chinese built Buicks are among the top selling brands in Shanghai, a city of 20+ million people…suppose the Chinese are mad money is flowing to America? I care about where a car, or any product for that matter, is made and who it is made by, but my money will continue to go to those that offer me the best product and service for my needs and wants. And, if a manufacturer doesn’t play on a global scale…it will become a global footnote in automotive history. Anyways, I’m more worried about that demonic company called Wal-Mart more than I am worried about foreign automotive competition.

Where the domestic mfgr's profits are getting hurt is in quality (fortunately that is improving but it was their own darn fault) and other costs such as pensions and other labor associated liabilities…use your imagination there. The relatively newly established competition doesn't have those burdens to deal with.

However, the main "body" I blame for our domestic mfgr's woes (automobile or otherwise) is that of government...whether it be the US government or foreign governments. It is a blessing and a curse that we have the free market economy here in the US. This market allows foreign owned companies to come here, buy land establish a presence and produce and sell goods but that market allows for goods to be purchased relatively cheaply from multiple sources. When looking at China and Japan (because those are our two main competitors) a foreign, i.e. US, company can't own a business...that's why Ford can't own more than ~33% of Mazda. The same goes in China where a foreign company actually has to establish a relationship with a Chinese company before doing business. China also levies huge taxes/duties on imported goods not made in that country. And I don’t think a foreign company can own land in either of those countries either…but I’ll have to check on that. So we don't have apples to apples when our domestic mfgr's have to compete in foreign lands and they are almost at a disadvantage even when competing at home. Good for other governments for protecting their businesses...shame on ours for not doing the same. But, how can you protect our companies without hurting the good of the public because IMO anything done to protect domestic business will just lessen competition and we end up with substandard product because the competition kept companies honest and striving to yield a cheaper/faster/better product. Personally, I blame the US government for not applying enough pressure on foreign governments to allow for more fair trade and competition as I think that is the best way to approach the problem. I don’t want to be bothered with more taxes and regulations at home in an attempt to keep foreign competition “fair”, instead let’s go knock on the doors of our competing governments.
 
04MEMA said:
And as far as the global comments go - help me out here - please elaborate. What does that mean? That a car is simply a commodity and who gives a sh*t who makes it? Is that how we're expected to start thinking? Seriously, I'm not sure if I'm missing the point of that - so help me out here if you wouldn't mind.
Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts - very interesting indeed.
Jeff
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As for the tone of voice - :hmmm:…apprehensive

Some interesting points. Like you I would prefer a 100% American Made anything. But they are making so many things outside the US at a much lower cost than it could be made here, one of the reasons that comes to mind is…I’ll leave that to someone else to take the hammering for. But wait, it gets better, this cheap labor is taking all types of jobs in its wake. I think we have all had the “customer service language barrier problem. :mad: Unless you can move to one of those 3rd world locations and work for peanuts, your not gonna do that for a living anymore. Quote - my :mad2: son.

Are we about to become a multi-lingual country? We’re already bi-lingual and I haven’t learned the bi yet. :D

This current situation has left many Americans jobless or settling for lower wages to survive as the “learning curve takes place”. What about the What the ---- do I need learn curve? :dunno:

But hey, it’s a "global" thing now. We'll :hmmm: it out.

On that note, try this scary thought.
The new world economy
World wages being leveled as economic power shifts mostly down to the 2nd and 3rd world nations. All skills would seek a world avg. earnings level. Unfortunately that means we would more than likely have to lower our life styles. :eek:
 
As one who used to do tech support for one of those companies, you are absolutely correct. I went from making over 8 dollars and hour woring there to making 6 at Wal-Mart because they moved their operations to india and the Phillipines (Used to do tech support for SBC DSL BTW.....). It sucks, had to sell my Caprice because I couldn't take the payment anymore and moved back home LOL. At least it convinced me to go back to school and get a finish getting my business degree!!!!!!
 
Silver_04 said:
I would like to think that the last two domestic auto mfgr's we have are smart enough to compete globally and be very aggressive about it...meaning they will use components manufactured by foreign and domestic companies and these same mfgr's will sell their cars in foreign lands. Let's not forget that Hondas and Toyotas use products designed and made by American companies. Therefore this global thing is reciprocal. And so what if Honda and Toyota build products here in the US that don’t get exported. Our very own GM and Ford operate plants all around the world that don’t employee Americans and they hardly export product from this country anyways. Yet, Chinese built Buicks are among the top selling brands in Shanghai, a city of 20+ million people…suppose the Chinese are mad money is flowing to America? I care about where a car, or any product for that matter, is made and who it is made by, but my money will continue to go to those that offer me the best product and service for my needs and wants.
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I agree completely with the last sentence - I will make every attept to buy local, but the product has to meet my needs. Altough I'm Canadian, I consider American-based companies local, for me. It's just a coincidence that both vehicles I own were assembled in Canada. Really, I can't even tell you the last non-American vehicle I was REALLY interested in, or excited about (Maybe the M5, but not at that price tag)...

There used to be a saying... "You don't save the barn, when the house is on fire, too." In other words, if any of these companies were in financial peril, they will chop jobs abroad first, to save those at home. I think times have changed, and there is less emphasis on "home" and much moreso on profits. Every car company will make a decision sole based on dollars and cents, regardless of sense...

PS - how do you pronounce DaimlerChrysler? Daimler. The Chrysler is silent.:baaa:
 
At least I know the sheet metal on our cars our made in the US, cause a few years ago the hood and floor pan was made right at my plant I work at. Those parts where moved to Buffalo to make room for all the parts on the 500/Montego/Freestlye car line. All I can say about our hoods and floor pans, they are heavy sons of bit*chs. I know from loading those suckers.
 
The real question for me is this: If there is are two cars that meet my needs, one American, one foriegn, how much better must the foriegn car be before it makes sense to buy it? The Honda Accord is the best built reasonably priced car in the US. Should I buy the Ford 500 instead because it is American? How much should I sacrifice to support Ford?
 
Two Hawks said:
The new world economy
World wages being leveled as economic power shifts mostly down to the 2nd and 3rd world nations. All skills would seek a world avg. earnings level. Unfortunately that means we would more than likely have to lower our life styles. :eek:
Click to expand...
This is really a tough discussion... I work for an American company... That sells parts to companies in countries all around the world. Most of the non-American companies sell complete systems back to people all over the world. From this perspective, the global economy feeds my family (from my paycheck)

On the other side, what do I buy... I do _try_ to buy local... meaning, I start first shopping at stores where my neighbors work... sure I use the internet to review products... but then I go to a local store... If the object is not available at a local store... I may then go to a national chain retailer... Still no luck... then I may go to a discount retailer

This is not the way to save money... as a matter of fact, I could probably save another 5%-10% a year if I skipped to only internet and discount retailer.

Note that I use this same philosophy for food. I buy at local farms first, farmers market second, local mom and pop super-markets, local chains... and never go to national chains. When I go to the stores, I look for North American products. Again, not the cheapest... I can probably save 10 - 15% if I just went to the discount supermarket.

My goal is to make sure that I support as local as possible as much as possible... I feel lucky that I am able to be able to operate in this method. I may not be able to do this forever, but right now I can. This is the best method that I know to try to help keep a local economy growing.

Is it tough to buy a pair of American made shoes at $150 to $250 when I could buy a 3 pairs for that same currency for shoes manufactured somewhere else? Yes... I could take that extra money and do a lot more for my immediate family.... right now... It is always a tough choice. (And I try to make sure I take extra care of these purchase such that the last longer)

I wish I new the right answer...

Here is what I do know...
Low labor cost countries have a very strong work ethic.
Low labor cost countries have a very strong drive for quality.
Low labor cost countries have a very LARGE amount of human resources.

Higher labor cost countries rely on automated equipment to be cost effective... but how effective can you be with a 1 million dollar assembly machine against a loaded hourly salary of $1.20 per hour?

What I beleive... products require manufacturing... manufacturing is the backbone of sweat equity.. just like when you put your own sweat equity in your own home repairs... manufacturing sweat entity pays huge local dividends. To have the nice cars/houses/etc... we need more sweat equity... less focus on "services", "out sourcing" and reselling of internet advertising space... and keep on doing the hard work.

Unfortunately, I do not have any idea on how to make this happen against low cost manufacturing areas... so I try to personally incentivize local business and local products... hence local manufacturing by adjusting my buying habits as much as possible. And, I try to do as much hard work that I can personally do. And sometimes I feel a lot like Don Quixote. In the end, I hope it helps.:beer:

ap2003
 
Okay...

dwasson said:
The real question for me is this: If there is are two cars that meet my needs, one American, one foriegn, how much better must the foriegn car be before it makes sense to buy it? The Honda Accord is the best built reasonably priced car in the US. Should I buy the Ford 500 instead because it is American? How much should I sacrifice to support Ford?
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Good point. I think that's a question lots of folks are asking. An interesting point also is are we being or have we been programed to believe that the Japanese cars are better? Is it true? I've got a 92 GMC Jimmy with 142k on the clock, and although it's not in top form anymore, it's still chugging along. Original engine, trans, transfer case etc. No major repairs in it's lifetime. You don't see magazines proclaiming GMC to be the greatest quality, but my personal experience so far has been positive. Are we taking the medias word for the quality, but not getting first hand experience? My wife drives a RAV4 and although she's run it into a few things (literally) since she's had it, it's been dependable. Although there's a strange sound it's been exhibiting for a year or so and the check engine light's been on forever - after taking it to the dealer to be fixed and having the light come back on shortly after. My point is that this vehicle is not without it's issues.

In the end perhaps it's only fair to return to the concept of a free market place. If GM and Ford can't compete with the competition than it's only right that they shrink and die off. If they can figure out how to compete and succeed in their tough situations then they deserve to thrive. But it really isn't a level playing field for them in some countries of the world and perhaps our government should have a policy on imports from other countries that mirrors that countries policies on imports to their country.

All I know is that from my point of view if Ford and GM can't be competitive in quality or any other aspect they need to get an edge somehow. Personally I believe in stirring people's passions. It's like falling in love. You don't think straight when you fall in love right? So make your cars so desireable that your competition doesn't have a chance. And at the same time make sure the short comings in your product don't overshadow (enough to lose them as customers) what people love about their cars - it seems to have worked for the MM - at least for many of the people on this site it seems. Just my thoughts, but what do I know? :laugh: (obviously not what I know...)
:loco:
 
I don't pay much attention to where a car is built, except in the negative. After the way Chevy abused us when we owned a Cavalier it will be a long time before I buy another GM. In our family fleet right now is:

2003 Marauder
2002 Kia Sedona
2002 Honda Accord
1996 Chrysler Cirrus

Each of these were purchased for valid reasons. I bought the Chrysler used with 25K miles at 2 years old. I needed a generic transporation module and I got a deal on this one.

We bought the wife's Honda because we had two Honda's previously and all ran impeccibly and lasted for high miles. We have never been left stranded by our Hondas or abused by the dealers.

We bought the Kia when we wanted a van for the dogs. We could have paid half again as much for a Chrysler or a Honda but why bother when we don't have to?

I didn't even need a car when I bought the Marauder. I bought a car then because the interest rates were so low it was easy to persuade my wife that it was a good time. The other cars I was looking at then were all Japanese (except Mazda may be American, who can tell?)

The point is this:

Unless the American companies can get my attention, show me something that meets my needs, and convince me of the value, why should I care?
 
The original poster was asking whether vehicles are truly American. Essentially, you need actual numbers to show what percentage of the vehicle's parts (in value) were produced domestically. It has been a while since I checked the CAFE (fuel economy) rules but back in 1992, a vehicle had to have 75%+ content to be considered domestic. I think that a manufacturer can have two sets of CAFE fleets -- one domestic and one import. The domestic Ford vehicles all had 80%+ domestic content. Whereas something like the Probe (rebadged Mazda, assembled in FlatRock, MI) had only 30%.

It's not until you get the real numbers that you can have a meaningful discussion. The "domestic" producers are using more "import" parts than they used to, sure. And the "import" producers are using more "domestic" parts, also sure. But if the domestic brands are still 75%+ domestic content and the Toyotas are still fooling around at (say) 20% then there are still clear distinctions to be made.

Unfortunately, people all too often find the exception (e.g. some Honda vehicle assembled in Ohio and using an American-built engine) and treat it as being common practice. I wonder what Honda's domestic-content is fleet-wide (including all their imported vehicles)? My guess would be very low.

Also notice that I keep saying how the import manufacturers assemble their vehicles here. That generates some jobs and value, sure. But the big money is in manufacturing the parts. If Toyota is assembling vehicles using 80% imported parts, then America has lost 8 jobs for every 2 it gained.


Another case-in-point is the Toyota design center that was recently announced near Detroit, giving 400 jobs to the area. Wow, 400 jobs, and now Toyota can claim that their vehicles are designed in Detroit, too. Ford, GM, Chrysler must generate 40,000+ direct jobs in Detroit. Not to mention the supplier base.

Consider Detroit without the Big Three -- no Ford, GM, Chrysler work. Ouch. But no supplier work either. Big ouch. Now who's left with a job? Almost no one. And nationwide, 10% of the American workforce is auto-related, folks.

No way would I ever buy an import.


The original poster then went on to mention Ford vehicles using Mazda or Volvo platforms, which is true, but you're talking about two or three vehicle lines, so 80%+ are still Ford platforms, designed by Ford.
BTW, Ford owns 33% of Mazda and 100% of the other companies mentioned (Volvo cars, Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc.)


It makes me nervous to have the Global economy idea, but we have to get used to it. However, it simply doesn't apply with the Japanese (and Koreans, I think) and their very protectionist home policies. Welcoming Japanese vehicle imports simply opens us to being economically attacked, while they retain their defenses to fend off our exports.
 
telson said:
It makes me nervous to have the Global economy idea, but we have to get used to it. However, it simply doesn't apply with the Japanese (and Koreans, I think) and their very protectionist home policies. Welcoming Japanese vehicle imports simply opens us to being economically attacked, while they retain their defenses to fend off our exports.
Click to expand...

This observation is right on the money. I will never buy Japanese either because of their protectionist policies. I would buy a Jag (XKR) if I could afford one...maybe when I retire!

Bob
 
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