Not so poor pt 2

[Fosters]

You don't buy it because you are 22 years old. Wait a couple of decades.

To the general point of obesity/laziness/welfare, I think it's a combination of these things. I'm old enough to remember when you had to go the Mexico to get a divorce, getting pregnant out of marriage was damn near a crime and a working Mom was pretty damn unusual. The clock will not go backwards but we can do a better job of bringing kids into the world thats for sure. I agree the welfare state is a mess and needs fixing. I also think the very rich are not paying their fair share in taxes and havent been in the past 20 years or so. We should bring back the tax rates of 1975. I think one of the biggest problems we have is an uncontrolled border flooding the country with illegal workers who will not complain about minimal wages. We need something that ties public support to a work requirement. If the excuse is "kids" then we should fund preschool/daycare things (with buses) so there are no excuses why one cannot go to work. While we're at it we need to "declare victory" in Iraq and Afganistan and get the hell out of there. We dont need a giant US embassy and 5 consulates in Iraq. We should tell Japan and Germany we are gone, no more US bases. We should close US embassies in dinky countries and combine them into regional embassies. We should institute a two (2) year National Service requirement for all Americans between the ages of 18-20 (not only the military but social service because some folks arent cut out for the military). We should end any future manned space program(s). We should combine the Coast Guard with the US Navy. We should legalize marijuana. We should bring back hanging as the only approved method of the death penalty. We should support union labor rights. Hey, my coffee was good this am!

The rich don't pay their fair share? What do you consider "fair" then?

Do you consider it fair that 50% of the population has NO federal income tax liability?

 

[Vortex]

Your second point first; I usually don't cut and paste articles but I can't put it any better than this:

"Today, TPC released a new study that examines why these people end up paying no federal income tax.
The number one reason should come as no surprise. It’s because they have low incomes. As my colleague Bob Williams notes:
A couple with two children earning less than $26,400 will pay no federal income tax this year because their $11,600 standard deduction and four exemptions of $3,700 each reduce their taxable income to zero. The basic structure of the income tax simply exempts subsistence levels of income from tax.
Low incomes (or, if you prefer, the standard deduction and personal exemptions) account for fully half of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The second reason is that for many senior citizens, Social Security benefits are exempt from federal income taxes. That accounts for about 22% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The third reason is that America uses the tax code to provide benefits to low-income families, particularly those with children. Taken together, the earned income tax credit, the child credit, and the childcare credit account for about 15% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
Taken together, those three factors — incomes that fall below the standard deduction and personal exemptions; the exemption for most Social Security benefits; and tax benefits aimed at low-income families and children — account for almost 90% of the Americans who pay no federal income tax."

The problem is we need to do a better job getting people out of poverty and making them viable taxpayers. We need to solve the problems of funding incentives for fatherless families and end the glorified "baby-momma" phenomena. I fault equally the guy that walks away from the responsibility and the woman that lets herself get pregnant in the first place. Work is a great way to do this, which is why I said we need solutions to women sitting at home watching tv with multiple fatherless children collecting welfare checks. If we could stop illegal immigrastion there would be more jobs available for these people. I'll add I am still a supporter of the the old "brasero" program that allowed migrant farm workers from Mexico to work in the US on a temporary basis (that requires strict enforcement to ensure no stayovers).

A few of other things, we need to end the baloney of anchor babies, if a child is born in the US to an illegal alien mother the child should remain a citizen of the mother's country of origin. Also we should make a law that says that any citizen that votes for any politician who signs a pledge promising to vote for any cause needs to lose their right to vote for a period of 5 years. If you are dumb enough to vote for a person who has abrogated their ability to make a decision based on everchanging circumstances you do not deserve the right to vote. While Im at it, I would like to ammend the Constitution so that only honorable discharged veterans of the military are allowed to be President and/or Vice President.

Regarding "fair share", I already said I would like to see our income tax rates back to the 1975 levels for upper income taxpayers.

 

[Fosters]

Your second point first; I usually don't cut and paste articles but I can't put it any better than this:

Today, TPC released a new study that examines why these people end up paying no federal income tax.
The number one reason should come as no surprise. It’s because they have low incomes. As my colleague Bob Williams notes:
A couple with two children earning less than $26,400 will pay no federal income tax this year because their $11,600 standard deduction and four exemptions of $3,700 each reduce their taxable income to zero. The basic structure of the income tax simply exempts subsistence levels of income from tax.
Low incomes (or, if you prefer, the standard deduction and personal exemptions) account for fully half of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The second reason is that for many senior citizens, Social Security benefits are exempt from federal income taxes. That accounts for about 22% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
The third reason is that America uses the tax code to provide benefits to low-income families, particularly those with children. Taken together, the earned income tax credit, the child credit, and the childcare credit account for about 15% of the people who pay no federal income tax.
Taken together, those three factors — incomes that fall below the standard deduction and personal exemptions; the exemption for most Social Security benefits; and tax benefits aimed at low-income families and children — account for almost 90% of the Americans who pay no federal income tax.

The problem is we need to do a better job getting people out of poverty and making them viable taxpayers. We need to solve the problems of funding incentives for fatherless families and end the glorified "baby-momma" phenomena. I fault equally the guy that walks away from the responsibility and the woman that lets herself get pregnant in the fisrt place. Work is a great way to do this, which is why I said we need solutions to women sitting at home watching tv with multiple fatherless children collecting welfare checks.

Regarding "fair share", I already said I would like to see our income tax rates back to the 1975 levels for upper income taxpayers.

You have not answered the last question; you instead explained what the 50% not paying income taxes do to get around the taxes.

Is it fair for 50% of the people to not pay ANY income taxes? Yes, or no. I don't care for why.

We will discuss tax rates after that.

 

[Vortex]

You have not answered the last question; you instead explained what the 50% not paying income taxes do to get around the taxes.

Is it fair for 50% of the people to not pay ANY income taxes? Yes, or no. I don't care for why.

We will discuss tax rates after that.

If you are poor, you are poor. Fair doesnt apply when you are poor. If you were hungry would you steal a loaf of bread to feed your family? Lets worry about the big picture, we need to reduce the number of poor people by getting them out of poverty and we need to ensure those who have the high priced tax attorneys are contributing their required share. Ok, Ive got tired-head now, I quit.

 

[Fosters]

If you are poor, you are poor. Fair doesnt apply when you are poor. If you were hungry would you steal a loaf of bread to feed your family? Lets worry about the big picture, we need to reduce the number of poor people by getting them out of poverty and we need to ensure those who have the high priced tax attorneys are contributing their required share. Ok, Ive got tired-head now, I quit.

It's nice to know that you think it's fair that 50% don't pay any taxes. I thought Obama said everyone has to have some skin in the game? I guess that means everyone but half.

No, I would not steal. I would work for it. Unless you gave it to me for free, then I wouldn't have to work for it. Which one of those two scenarios would create more wealth and get me out of poverty?

Are you saying if you're poor, that's an excuse to steal?

 

[Blackened300a]

Careful there. You should see the T-Shirt order form for a Marauderville event and count the 2X, 3X, 4X and 5X orders

Agreed, The Carlisle and Mechanic shirts were most popular in 2XL. The smaller sizes I have the most left over of and the large sizes I never have enough of.

We should bring back capital punishment in NYS period. Public hangings make a great deterrent for those who do not understand conseqeunces for their actions.

Don't you know thats cruel and inhumaine?? Someone who kills their entire family should be allowed to live the rest of their lives on the public till in one of our fine prison systems because two wrongs don't make a right sir. :mad2:
Thats the liberal way of thinking and more reason why I want out of this state. :shake:

 

[jerrym3]

You have not answered the last question; you instead explained what the 50% not paying income taxes do to get around the taxes.

Is it fair for 50% of the people to not pay ANY income taxes? Yes, or no. I don't care for why.

We will discuss tax rates after that.

What they (the poor) do to get around paying taxes?

They follow the tax guidelines, as do the super rich.

The "why" doesn't matter?

That's just downright cruelty. Of course it does.

Having money for food, rent, heat/electricity vs paying fair share of taxes.

Great choice. Glad we don't have to make it.

 

[Papillon]

Thats the liberal way of thinking and more reason why I want out of this state. :shake:

:awe: Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!?!!!!

 

[HammerDown]

Best political post iv'e seen in a long time!

:beer:

Yes!!!!:agree:

 

[MrBluGruv]

Try that at age 35 and let us know how that goes.

You don't buy it because you are 22 years old. Wait a couple of decades.

Still not seeing it. I haven't seen a threshold age where everyone suddenly becomes morbidly obese. Yes, it gets harder to stay in ideal shape, metabolism slows down, etc. But I've also seen my father, aged 59, pretty much fight back diabetes and lose a fair bit of weight in the process. This is without an exercise routine also, and I'm working on getting him into that as well.

It is what it is, but don't lie to yourself about it. Also, as I said, there's a BIG difference between overweight and seriously obese....

 

[Fosters]

Still not seeing it. I haven't seen a threshold age where everyone suddenly becomes morbidly obese. Yes, it gets harder to stay in ideal shape, metabolism slows down, etc. But I've also seen my father, aged 59, pretty much fight back diabetes and lose a fair bit of weight in the process. This is without an exercise routine also, and I'm working on getting him into that as well.

It is what it is, but don't lie to yourself about it. Also, as I said, there's a BIG difference between overweight and seriously obese....

Amen, I'm on the same diet, and I've been told that same exact line - wait till you're x years old! - and I'm 30 now and still hover around 220lbs.

Went into college 6'1", 130lbs, came out 6'1" 235lbs. slowly dropped to around 220 since and been keeping it around 220-230 depending on how much soda I drink and how much snow I shovel in the winter

 

[jerrym3]

Genetics, as well as diet, can play a role.

How often do you see overweight Asians?

True, Asians most likely have a healthier diet, but still, overweight Asians are very rare.

Don't mean to get racist here; just an observance.

 

[duhtroll]

I think if you search a bit you'll find that is a stereotype and not really true.

Sure, they might be less obese than we are, but "very rare" is prolly exaggerated a bit.

Genetics, as well as diet, can play a role.

How often do you see overweight Asians?

True, Asians most likely have a healthier diet, but still, overweight Asians are very rare.

Don't mean to get racist here; just an observance.

 

[PonyUP]

Still not seeing it. I haven't seen a threshold age where everyone suddenly becomes morbidly obese. Yes, it gets harder to stay in ideal shape, metabolism slows down, etc. But I've also seen my father, aged 59, pretty much fight back diabetes and lose a fair bit of weight in the process. This is without an exercise routine also, and I'm working on getting him into that as well.

It is what it is, but don't lie to yourself about it. Also, as I said, there's a BIG difference between overweight and seriously obese....

It's very easy to say that someone becomes overweight because they eat poorly, eat too much, or are couch potato's, and that does happen.

But people become overweight for a variety of reasons, and people that become morbidly obese, do not do so of their own free will. No one wants to be 4 or 500lbs. Food can be addictive, and it also is often times a product of depression. Then you become depressed because of the food and weight, and it becomes an endless vicious circle. How do I know? I used to be 430lbs, and believe me it did not happen overnight and was not a product of not being active. It started with a herniated disc in my back that was misdiagnosed, and for a year I could hardly walk. There wasn't one second of anyday that I was not in excruciating pain. So I gained about 40lbs there, then became depressed about the food and my back to the point of being near suicide because the pain was too much.

Finally I had surgery and the back was fixed, but the damage was done. And it stayed that way for another 11 years gradually growing bit by bit each year. It wasn't until I hit Rock bottom that I made a change. Doctors told me I ahd to lose weight, so did family and friends, but it didn't happen until I got there.

Once there I changed everything and have dropped over 160lbs, and it does get much harder the older you get.

Now that having been said, Fast Food, junk food, and quick food all add to the obesity problem and many health problems, and it is not a way to live. Whether you gain weight or not, the cholesterol is going to go through the roof eventually, the sodium is incredibly high, and there is very little nutritional value. Many places have included healthy options now, which helps. I think the choice to have these garbage foods (And I still do on rare occassion if you saw pics from my Chicago trip) is a personal one, and I submit perhaps a junk food tax may help curb it, but that is not exactly fair to the people that do control their portions and occassionally want a Big Mac.

What I'm saying is, there is a whole lot more that goes into being overweight than lack of impulse control. Smokers and Overweight people are the only acceptable form of discrimination in todays world, and for the overweight, that type of ridicule and singling out only adds to their challenges. For while there are many people that get that way through what you describe, there are also many that struggle with it incredibly on an hourly basis. Just my two cents as a former extreme fatty and now a pleasantly plump fatty :beer:

 

[MrBluGruv]

It's very easy to say that someone becomes overweight because they eat poorly, eat too much, or are couch potato's, and that does happen.

But people become overweight for a variety of reasons, and people that become morbidly obese, do not do so of their own free will. No one wants to be 4 or 500lbs. Food can be addictive, and it also is often times a product of depression. Then you become depressed because of the food and weight, and it becomes an endless vicious circle. How do I know? I used to be 430lbs, and believe me it did not happen overnight and was not a product of not being active. It started with a herniated disc in my back that was misdiagnosed, and for a year I could hardly walk. There wasn't one second of anyday that I was not in excruciating pain. So I gained about 40lbs there, then became depressed about the food and my back to the point of being near suicide because the pain was too much.

Finally I had surgery and the back was fixed, but the damage was done. And it stayed that way for another 11 years gradually growing bit by bit each year. It wasn't until I hit Rock bottom that I made a change. Doctors told me I ahd to lose weight, so did family and friends, but it didn't happen until I got there.

Once there I changed everything and have dropped over 160lbs, and it does get much harder the older you get.

Now that having been said, Fast Food, junk food, and quick food all add to the obesity problem and many health problems, and it is not a way to live. Whether you gain weight or not, the cholesterol is going to go through the roof eventually, the sodium is incredibly high, and there is very little nutritional value. Many places have included healthy options now, which helps. I think the choice to have these garbage foods (And I still do on rare occassion if you saw pics from my Chicago trip) is a personal one, and I submit perhaps a junk food tax may help curb it, but that is not exactly fair to the people that do control their portions and occassionally want a Big Mac.

What I'm saying is, there is a whole lot more that goes into being overweight than lack of impulse control. Smokers and Overweight people are the only acceptable form of discrimination in todays world, and for the overweight, that type of ridicule and singling out only adds to their challenges. For while there are many people that get that way through what you describe, there are also many that struggle with it incredibly on an hourly basis. Just my two cents as a former extreme fatty and now a pleasantly plump fatty :beer:

I agree and disagree with a lot of this.

I find it hard to put it eloquently; yes, it can be easy to fall into that, and yes it isn't really easy to just get rid of it once it's there, but that's kind of the point: if it were SUPER easy everyone would have the physique of the ideal body. I've hit my own rock-bottom before, and that's a big part of why I'm nearly 230 now instead of the leaner 180 I used to be. I just hope that I don't take a trip back down there again, but it was ME that got me out of that spot as well, no one did it for me. I know it's also not always easy to just pull yourself back up, but you have to, that's just the way life is. While the increase in weight may not be the desired end result, it is most definitely their free will if they choose to eat as a comfort; the food doesn't enter their body by accident. Unless you are talking about a substance that creates a physical addiction over time, this will always be true.

Now too I think I said this before, but medical reasons like glandular issues and such, I don't hold to the same standard. That's not just unfair to those that suffer from it, but it's in extreme poor taste as well.

Even all those things aside, you are in essence proving my point: you had eaten more than you needed to (for your own reasons), and at least for a time you lead a sedentary lifestyle (out of necessity of course, given your condition).

The bottom line is I'm not trying to levy some kind of judgement as for HOW it happens, I just don't like the reasons why it happens to get out of sight, because ignoring those reasons can lead to enabling that problem further; and because of all that I just didn't really buy those two women's particular situation of frequently not eating given the size they were.

I'm not there though, so at the end of the day what more can I argue anyway right? I think we're reaching (if we haven't passed it already) a point of frivolity...

 

[Fosters]

Before this delves into a body fat index argument, let's go back to the basics a bit. The thread was about the poor, and those two jabba-the-hut life size figurines. I'm sorry, but not having a car should be like the ultimate workout... But instead, they complained that they have to pay people for a ride to take them grocery shopping. Sorry, since you're sitting at home all day long, you can take a mile walk to the nearest grocery store 7 times per week, rather than do it once per week like the average working people.

I know back in eastern europe, walking darn near everywhere, you rarely saw anyone looking THAT bad; heck, you rarely ever saw people as big as me. Yes, there are medical problems that get people tho those higher weight ranges, but those are few and far between.

 

[PonyUP]

I agree and disagree with a lot of this.

I find it hard to put it eloquently; yes, it can be easy to fall into that, and yes it isn't really easy to just get rid of it once it's there, but that's kind of the point: if it were SUPER easy everyone would have the physique of the ideal body. I've hit my own rock-bottom before, and that's a big part of why I'm nearly 230 now instead of the leaner 180 I used to be. I just hope that I don't take a trip back down there again, but it was ME that got me out of that spot as well, no one did it for me. I know it's also not always easy to just pull yourself back up, but you have to, that's just the way life is. While the increase in weight may not be the desired end result, it is most definitely their free will if they choose to eat as a comfort; the food doesn't enter their body by accident. Unless you are talking about a substance that creates a physical addiction over time, this will always be true.

Now too I think I said this before, but medical reasons like glandular issues and such, I don't hold to the same standard. That's not just unfair to those that suffer from it, but it's in extreme poor taste as well.

Even all those things aside, you are in essence proving my point: you had eaten more than you needed to (for your own reasons), and at least for a time you lead a sedentary lifestyle (out of necessity of course, given your condition).

The bottom line is I'm not trying to levy some kind of judgement as for HOW it happens, I just don't like the reasons why it happens to get out of sight, because ignoring those reasons can lead to enabling that problem further; and because of all that I just didn't really buy those two women's particular situation of frequently not eating given the size they were.

I'm not there though, so at the end of the day what more can I argue anyway right? I think we're reaching (if we haven't passed it already) a point of frivolity...

I concur, regardless of the reasons why, they do have the power to stop and change just like any of us. Admittedly, I didn't watch the original video, I just caught the last couple of pages of the thread, much like smoking, it was a choice to begin that lifestyle, and it's a choice to end it. You have to want to end it though on your own. I can only speak for myself, but I like life much better at 270 instead of 430. Can't wait to see life at an even two bills

 

[MrBluGruv]

but I like life much better at 270 instead of 430

And kudos to that man, for sure. :beer:

 

[Joe Walsh]

I can't read about these ridiculous welfare programs and the abuses that go with them.

It just enrages me.....:mad2:......and I'm afraid I'm going to 'pop an embolism' leaving my employed wife to fend for herself without government hand-outs!

I would welcome a nuking of Capitol Hill during a full Senate and House session.
We can rebuild the Mall and the Smithsonian Museums with all of the saved government spending.

 

[Bigdogjim]

Yep! This thread has run way off topic?

And by the way what's your BMI?

Now if anyone wants to try and look me in eye and tell me "your too fat" well they better be able to outrun me:lol: